Jacqueline Frosts's book Cinematography for Directors, is available from Michael Wiese Productions.
Dave Watson: First, congratulations on the book. Why do you focus on cinematography? One occasionally hears of cinematographers not getting the credit they deserve.
Jacqueline Frost: My background is in art, so as an art major I was required to take many art history classes as I looked at paintings, I saw they are really about composition and light, telling a story with a single image and creating a mood. I was particularly drawn to the work of Rembrandt, Caravaggio and many of the French Impressionists. In terms of American painters, the work of Edward Hopper and Winslow Homer, as I spoke with cinematographers I realized that many of these artists are often used as visual references for films.
As I moved into still photography, I took my sense of composition and channeled it through a lens, integrating the technical elements of the medium such as depth of field and various focal lengths. A course in film history pulled it all together for me, because I loved studying various genres in cinema. What I really like about film is the combination of so many arts coming together to tell a story. To me cinematography is the culmination of all of these elements.
Cinematographers are not as well known as the directors, but I find that is beginning to change, where cinematographers like Roger Deakins, Rodrigo Prieto, Matthew Libatique, Wally Pfister and many others working today are becoming known. These cinematographers may have been influenced by or mentored by masters such as Gordon Willis, Conrad Hall or Vittorio Storaro or numerous others. Even in the history of cinema, Gregg Toland who photographed Citizen Kane is often seen now as an inspiration for cinematographers and has become famous in the history of cinematography.
DW: Why cinematography for directors?
JF: The collaboration between a director and a cinematographer is essential, and I wanted to stress that relationship. Communication between the two is key, and cinematographers have more input visually then most people realize. I realized that people didn’t really understand how much the cinematographer and director were a team in creating the look and feel of the film. I used to teach a course through the UCLA Extension program called “Cinematography for Directors,” I had actors, producers, directors and filmmakers in general take the course to understand how to get what they wanted from the cinematographer.
DW: The rest of your book's title, A Guide for Creative Collaboration, and at one point Roger Deakins discusses the creative process with the director from start to finish. Were you surprised by anything he or other cinematographers said?
JF: It was really interesting to hear how all of the cinematographers like to work with directors and how often that collaboration goes from film to film. For example, Roger frequently works with the Coen brothers, and he loves their collaboration. There is a short hand in a working relationship that has already been established. Rodrigo Prieto has been working with Martin Scorsese on his last two films. Matty Libatique often works with Darren Aronofsky and Spike Lee, Sal Totino works with Ron Howard and of course Janusz Kaminski shoots for Steven Spielberg all the time.
They are involved from the start, not just showing up to shoot, they go on the location scouts, sometimes help the director storyboard, come up with a visual design with the director and production designer and understand the thematic elements of the script which is essential to their being able to photograph it effectively. So collaboration is key!
DW Later, Matthew Libatique says he is in the director's environment.
JF: Yes, because as a cinematographer you are working in collaboration with the director to get the images they see in their mind on the screen. So it is important that you know and respect the director and what they are trying to achieve. Matty respects intelligence and a director who really understands the thematic elements of the script. For that shoot, however long it is you are in the world created by the director’s vision, the mood and pace of the set is dictated by the director. If a cinematographer cannot work in that particular directors environment, it will show on the screen. So it is very important that during the first meeting the cinematographer feels that the director is someone they respect and can collaborate with to create the best film possible.
DW: The color palate seems very noticeable in some films, such as 21 Grams, Traffic, and Lust, Caution, yet sometimes it seems to take a backseat in a film. Do you agree? Does it depend on the story?
JF: The color palate is decided by the director and cinematographer early in pre-production to underscore the thematic elements of the film. It is an indicator of different story lines such as in Traffic, 21 Grams, Babel and many others. Sometimes it is genre driven, for example, a de-saturated color palate is often used in thrillers or dramas, or even in Science fiction films. The color palate becomes a stylistic element of the film to enhance the story line, to evoke a certain set of emotions in the viewer. A rich, colorful film is seen more in romantic comedies, where the audience needs to fall in love with the couple involved. A dark, brooding palate would be completely wrong in a rom-com! The discussion about what the color palate should be comes early on in meetings between the director, cinematographer, and production designer; it is not something that occurs in post-production. Cinematography should not really be noticeable it should not make the viewer step out of the story but draw them in.
DW: Lighting styles vary, and the prince of darkness, Gordon Willis, just passed away. Like color palette, lighting use is all over the place. What makes you notice it?
JF: Lighting is the cinematographers painting, where there is light and where there is darkness is an indicator of drawing the viewer’s attention to something in the scene. High contrast lighting is frequently utilized in thrillers, horror films, dramatic films, where as a softer, brighter low contrast lighting scenario would be used to tell the audience what kind of film it is, such as a romantic comedy. So color palate is like lighting, it is genre specific and a storytelling tool to evoke an emotional response from the viewer. Beautiful lighting is like a painting, you can notice it but it really shouldn’t take you out of the story. Gordon Willis will be missed by many: for his work in the Godfather films and in early Woody Allen films are unique and he was not afraid to dip into shadow regardless or genre!
DW: Will films be made in black and white in the future? Some fear it is endangered.
JF: Film is endangered, but it could make a come back! Not many films will be in black in white in the future, it will only be used stylistically. But if they are they will be shot on color stock with the color removed in post to get the contrast and gray scale of old B&W stocks. Shooting B&W films like the film noirs of the 40’s will not make a come back, the chemical process is to complicated and to the future technicians the learning curve would be huge. We live in a digital world, and that is where post-production will certainly stay. If someone originates on film it will then be scanned into the digital world for sure.
DW: Do you think one should be able to watch a film with the sound off?
JF: If the images attract your attention then yes you could watch a film with the sound off, if you flip through the channels and something catches your eye, you may start watching it even though you don’t know what’s going on because you are in the middle of the film. But the images grabbed your attention and so you follow the visual storytelling.
DW: How has the use of lenses changed over the years in feature films? You use examples that span about the last hundred years!
JF: Lenses are still used the same way, with a wide angle capturing the entire essence of a scene with depth of field, or used in close proximity to the actor which can slightly distort their features, a long lens is still going to isolate the subject from their environment and soften the depth of field so all you see is the subject. But the quality of lenses has certainly improved and can be seen as we are able to capture images with amazing resolution. They are sharper and crisper then ever.
DW: Lenses are often tested by cinematographers before the shoot to determine the quality that would work best for the story they are capturing, a sharper lens, an older softer lens, whether they are going to use all primes or include a zoom. Older lenses had certain qualities that could work for a period piece film, such as the vinetting that Roger Deakins used in The Assasination of Jessie James by the Coward Robert Ford. The lens is the eye of the camera, it captures the scene in a particular way with it’s own unique quality, so the selection is an important one!
DW: What is the most beautifully photographed film?
JF: There is no one film of course! So many are amazingly photographed…I find myself drawn to the work of Conrad Hall, with American Beauty, of course Days of Heaven by Nestor Alemendros, Apocalypse Now by Vittorio Storraro, Manhattan by Gordon Willis, I thought Water for Elephants was beautiful, photographed by Rodrigo Prieto, the quality of light captured in Field of Dreams by John Lindley, the subtle and natural quality of Ordinary People shot by John Bailey…I could go on and on…I love cinematography and there are so many beautiful films! I was drawn to the work of Roger Deakins and John Seale many years ago, so I really can’t pick one film! If you want to watch a film over and over, they are part of the reason.
DW: What's next for you? You work as a consultant and give workshops on...
JF: I am working on two books right now, one is kind of a follow up to this one, Secrets from the Masters: Exploring the path towards Cinematography (working title) and Eye Behind the Lens: A conversation with Contemporary Cinematographers…hope to get them both wrapped by next year. I have also been shooting a documentary about the artist Ana Mendieta that has taken me to New York, Rome, London and Iowa! We are now in post-production, gathering stock footage etc…I am also one of the producers. I do consulting and I teach Cinematography, Experimental Film, documentary film and advanced motion picture production at CSUF. This summer I will be teaching documentary filmmaking in Florence, Italy.
DW: What is the most memorable cinematic moment for you?
JF: That’s a hard question! There are so many, from the classics as well as from more contemporary films. I don’t think I can answer that question. At the ASC clubhouse, they show a montage of movie moments from historical to more contemporary films and I have to say they capture some of the best cinematic moments in one short film!
There are SO MANY!! But I love the scene in Cinema Paradiso where he screens the edited kisses. It brings tears to my eyes every time, it’s beautifully photographed, but it’s also about nostalgia, lost love and life.
Clip: Montage from Cinema Paradiso
Dave Watson: First, congratulations on the book. Why do you focus on cinematography? One occasionally hears of cinematographers not getting the credit they deserve.
Jacqueline Frost: My background is in art, so as an art major I was required to take many art history classes as I looked at paintings, I saw they are really about composition and light, telling a story with a single image and creating a mood. I was particularly drawn to the work of Rembrandt, Caravaggio and many of the French Impressionists. In terms of American painters, the work of Edward Hopper and Winslow Homer, as I spoke with cinematographers I realized that many of these artists are often used as visual references for films.
As I moved into still photography, I took my sense of composition and channeled it through a lens, integrating the technical elements of the medium such as depth of field and various focal lengths. A course in film history pulled it all together for me, because I loved studying various genres in cinema. What I really like about film is the combination of so many arts coming together to tell a story. To me cinematography is the culmination of all of these elements.
Cinematographers are not as well known as the directors, but I find that is beginning to change, where cinematographers like Roger Deakins, Rodrigo Prieto, Matthew Libatique, Wally Pfister and many others working today are becoming known. These cinematographers may have been influenced by or mentored by masters such as Gordon Willis, Conrad Hall or Vittorio Storaro or numerous others. Even in the history of cinema, Gregg Toland who photographed Citizen Kane is often seen now as an inspiration for cinematographers and has become famous in the history of cinematography.
DW: Why cinematography for directors?
JF: The collaboration between a director and a cinematographer is essential, and I wanted to stress that relationship. Communication between the two is key, and cinematographers have more input visually then most people realize. I realized that people didn’t really understand how much the cinematographer and director were a team in creating the look and feel of the film. I used to teach a course through the UCLA Extension program called “Cinematography for Directors,” I had actors, producers, directors and filmmakers in general take the course to understand how to get what they wanted from the cinematographer.
DW: The rest of your book's title, A Guide for Creative Collaboration, and at one point Roger Deakins discusses the creative process with the director from start to finish. Were you surprised by anything he or other cinematographers said?
JF: It was really interesting to hear how all of the cinematographers like to work with directors and how often that collaboration goes from film to film. For example, Roger frequently works with the Coen brothers, and he loves their collaboration. There is a short hand in a working relationship that has already been established. Rodrigo Prieto has been working with Martin Scorsese on his last two films. Matty Libatique often works with Darren Aronofsky and Spike Lee, Sal Totino works with Ron Howard and of course Janusz Kaminski shoots for Steven Spielberg all the time.
They are involved from the start, not just showing up to shoot, they go on the location scouts, sometimes help the director storyboard, come up with a visual design with the director and production designer and understand the thematic elements of the script which is essential to their being able to photograph it effectively. So collaboration is key!
DW Later, Matthew Libatique says he is in the director's environment.
JF: Yes, because as a cinematographer you are working in collaboration with the director to get the images they see in their mind on the screen. So it is important that you know and respect the director and what they are trying to achieve. Matty respects intelligence and a director who really understands the thematic elements of the script. For that shoot, however long it is you are in the world created by the director’s vision, the mood and pace of the set is dictated by the director. If a cinematographer cannot work in that particular directors environment, it will show on the screen. So it is very important that during the first meeting the cinematographer feels that the director is someone they respect and can collaborate with to create the best film possible.
DW: The color palate seems very noticeable in some films, such as 21 Grams, Traffic, and Lust, Caution, yet sometimes it seems to take a backseat in a film. Do you agree? Does it depend on the story?
JF: The color palate is decided by the director and cinematographer early in pre-production to underscore the thematic elements of the film. It is an indicator of different story lines such as in Traffic, 21 Grams, Babel and many others. Sometimes it is genre driven, for example, a de-saturated color palate is often used in thrillers or dramas, or even in Science fiction films. The color palate becomes a stylistic element of the film to enhance the story line, to evoke a certain set of emotions in the viewer. A rich, colorful film is seen more in romantic comedies, where the audience needs to fall in love with the couple involved. A dark, brooding palate would be completely wrong in a rom-com! The discussion about what the color palate should be comes early on in meetings between the director, cinematographer, and production designer; it is not something that occurs in post-production. Cinematography should not really be noticeable it should not make the viewer step out of the story but draw them in.
DW: Lighting styles vary, and the prince of darkness, Gordon Willis, just passed away. Like color palette, lighting use is all over the place. What makes you notice it?
JF: Lighting is the cinematographers painting, where there is light and where there is darkness is an indicator of drawing the viewer’s attention to something in the scene. High contrast lighting is frequently utilized in thrillers, horror films, dramatic films, where as a softer, brighter low contrast lighting scenario would be used to tell the audience what kind of film it is, such as a romantic comedy. So color palate is like lighting, it is genre specific and a storytelling tool to evoke an emotional response from the viewer. Beautiful lighting is like a painting, you can notice it but it really shouldn’t take you out of the story. Gordon Willis will be missed by many: for his work in the Godfather films and in early Woody Allen films are unique and he was not afraid to dip into shadow regardless or genre!
DW: Will films be made in black and white in the future? Some fear it is endangered.
JF: Film is endangered, but it could make a come back! Not many films will be in black in white in the future, it will only be used stylistically. But if they are they will be shot on color stock with the color removed in post to get the contrast and gray scale of old B&W stocks. Shooting B&W films like the film noirs of the 40’s will not make a come back, the chemical process is to complicated and to the future technicians the learning curve would be huge. We live in a digital world, and that is where post-production will certainly stay. If someone originates on film it will then be scanned into the digital world for sure.
DW: Do you think one should be able to watch a film with the sound off?
JF: If the images attract your attention then yes you could watch a film with the sound off, if you flip through the channels and something catches your eye, you may start watching it even though you don’t know what’s going on because you are in the middle of the film. But the images grabbed your attention and so you follow the visual storytelling.
DW: How has the use of lenses changed over the years in feature films? You use examples that span about the last hundred years!
JF: Lenses are still used the same way, with a wide angle capturing the entire essence of a scene with depth of field, or used in close proximity to the actor which can slightly distort their features, a long lens is still going to isolate the subject from their environment and soften the depth of field so all you see is the subject. But the quality of lenses has certainly improved and can be seen as we are able to capture images with amazing resolution. They are sharper and crisper then ever.
DW: Lenses are often tested by cinematographers before the shoot to determine the quality that would work best for the story they are capturing, a sharper lens, an older softer lens, whether they are going to use all primes or include a zoom. Older lenses had certain qualities that could work for a period piece film, such as the vinetting that Roger Deakins used in The Assasination of Jessie James by the Coward Robert Ford. The lens is the eye of the camera, it captures the scene in a particular way with it’s own unique quality, so the selection is an important one!
DW: What is the most beautifully photographed film?
JF: There is no one film of course! So many are amazingly photographed…I find myself drawn to the work of Conrad Hall, with American Beauty, of course Days of Heaven by Nestor Alemendros, Apocalypse Now by Vittorio Storraro, Manhattan by Gordon Willis, I thought Water for Elephants was beautiful, photographed by Rodrigo Prieto, the quality of light captured in Field of Dreams by John Lindley, the subtle and natural quality of Ordinary People shot by John Bailey…I could go on and on…I love cinematography and there are so many beautiful films! I was drawn to the work of Roger Deakins and John Seale many years ago, so I really can’t pick one film! If you want to watch a film over and over, they are part of the reason.
DW: What's next for you? You work as a consultant and give workshops on...
JF: I am working on two books right now, one is kind of a follow up to this one, Secrets from the Masters: Exploring the path towards Cinematography (working title) and Eye Behind the Lens: A conversation with Contemporary Cinematographers…hope to get them both wrapped by next year. I have also been shooting a documentary about the artist Ana Mendieta that has taken me to New York, Rome, London and Iowa! We are now in post-production, gathering stock footage etc…I am also one of the producers. I do consulting and I teach Cinematography, Experimental Film, documentary film and advanced motion picture production at CSUF. This summer I will be teaching documentary filmmaking in Florence, Italy.
DW: What is the most memorable cinematic moment for you?
JF: That’s a hard question! There are so many, from the classics as well as from more contemporary films. I don’t think I can answer that question. At the ASC clubhouse, they show a montage of movie moments from historical to more contemporary films and I have to say they capture some of the best cinematic moments in one short film!
There are SO MANY!! But I love the scene in Cinema Paradiso where he screens the edited kisses. It brings tears to my eyes every time, it’s beautifully photographed, but it’s also about nostalgia, lost love and life.
Clip: Montage from Cinema Paradiso