You can order Troy's book from Michael Wiese Productions here.
Dave Watson: Congratulations on the new book. Why a second edition?
Troy Devolld: The first edition was written over 2009-2010, and in the six or seven years following, there have been some significant changes to the business that I thought should be addressed. For example, just about everyone in story has an Avid station sitting on their desk these days, and we're doing more stringouts for editors than we are paper edits, which were already on the way out by the time the first book was released. It just felt like time to revisit.
There's also much more on creating and selling shows in the second edition, despite my still-strong feelings about people working their way up in the business and really understanding how things work before they start pitching. A career opens doors and gives you access in a way that simply having a lot of ideas doesn't, so the first book focused almost exclusively on the nuts and bolts of the process and finding work.
Now that the book is being taught in the university level, I think it's important to go that extra distance to dig deeper into the mechanics of selling original content.
DW: How important is writing? Thinking of your section “Story is Story and Story is Written. Sort of.”
TD: I've always said that anything you know about traditionally scripted content will serve you in the reality television world, because the best reality content mimics the structure of sitcoms and dramas. You still need to know how A and B stories function, the importance of throughlines, and know how to build stakes and intensity as each episode moves forward. The tool kit is different, but the end result should always be a great story, not a lot of what I call "cutting for noise."
DW: By “cutting for noise” you mean…
TD: Valuing the rat-a-tat moments more than forging a coherent story from highs and lows. Non-stop action that’s big, big, big, but might not make sense.
DW: My favorite-named chapter is “The Seven (seventy) Types of Reality Shows.” Was writing that chapter challenging?
TD: Not really, especially as the whole point is that shows are hybridizing like crazy, which is why it's hard to nail down what anything is at its core. Sure, you've got a reality competition series, but maybe it has elements of paranormal or hidden camera stuff. That chapter serves to point out the way that your show needs to be presented as something recognizable to buyers or production partners when you pitch, but that defining some types of hybridized shows can be slippery.
DW: You get down to on the set, operational tips. How is this different on reality TV versus your standard TV show?
TD: In many ways, it's the same. The deal with reality television is often that you need to allow the story to deviate from what you are hoping to get, and make revisions on the fly to accommodate them. Sitcoms often make changes on set, but they're on the level of making a joke work, not suddenly realizing that you've got a feud on your hands or that something shared is suddenly bigger than the story you've been following. Actors are usually well-trained professionals who may have opinions here and there about the characters they're playing, but reality is largely a sensitive, ongoing dialogue about helping non-pro stars stay open and authentic.
DW: You also mention at one point that talent is not your friend. Why not?
TD: Well, they're certainly not the enemy, either. But getting too buddy-buddy with the talent can leave them feeling betrayed depending on what makes it into the show or doesn't and how the post team handles storylines. I also think that getting too close to talent gives you a skewed take on the people they are on-camera versus off, which makes it hard to reconcile little personality differences in the final product. I often actively avoid the talent so that what I see coming in from the field is all I know about them, keeping my evaluation of the material the field team is bringing in pure. As with all things in life, there are some exceptions. Some reality talent needs a little aftercare and checking in on between seasons.
DW: Is it hard to stay current and topical with TV? How hard is it to forecast trends in TV viewing?
TD: I try to watch a single episode of anything that becomes successful, and I'm usually fluent in whatever's on air at any given time as a result. You really can't predict trends, you can only set sail on new ideas and hope they catch on. When they do, you'll have six copycat shows on the air in a couple of months. There's a lot of following trends rather than pushing out new and edgy stuff. Networks often focus on adapting shows they've found overseas rather then home-growing content (see Dancing With the Stars, Big Brother, and so on), because they feel it takes some of the risk out of things to work from a proven concept from Denmark, Israel, the UK, or anywhere American viewers' eyes haven't been to yet.
DW: On that note, reality TV seems to be here to stay. Do you agree? If it is here to stay, why?
TD: It's here to stay, and like sitcoms and other types of programming, demand will ebb and flow and in periods of creative stagnation and predictability, you'll see more or fewer reality shows. Real people are interesting in a way that fictional characters aren't, and vice-versa. Ebb and flow, ebb and flow.
DW: What’s next for you?
TD: I seldom know what's next for me until it pops up. I'm moving into the space where I'm developing more of my own content, but I enjoy being a custodian to other people's shows and ideas as much as my own. I'm more of a process nut than a glory hound, so I'm perfectly happy as a Co-EP or Supervising Producer until I move into a creator role.
DW: What’s your favorite cinematic or television moment? One that inspires you still to this day. It can be a scene, emotion, character or thematic moment.
TD: Of my own shows, I've never been more moved than I was by Jeff Lewis throwing a party for his staff at the end of season one of Flipping Out. He was very emotional and raw and authentic in a way that you might not imagine him to be. I still think that show is one of the most emotionally authentic in reality television.
As for all-time television favorites, that's a tough one. There's a Heide Perlman episode of Cheers (EP 1:14, Let Me Count the Ways) that made me want to pursue writing sitcoms when I was younger. Diane's elderly cat dies, and the bar's lack of sympathy offered over the event registers with her as evidence of how little they care about her. When she tells Sam, privately, why the cat was so significant to her, I fall apart every time.
Dave Watson: Congratulations on the new book. Why a second edition?
Troy Devolld: The first edition was written over 2009-2010, and in the six or seven years following, there have been some significant changes to the business that I thought should be addressed. For example, just about everyone in story has an Avid station sitting on their desk these days, and we're doing more stringouts for editors than we are paper edits, which were already on the way out by the time the first book was released. It just felt like time to revisit.
There's also much more on creating and selling shows in the second edition, despite my still-strong feelings about people working their way up in the business and really understanding how things work before they start pitching. A career opens doors and gives you access in a way that simply having a lot of ideas doesn't, so the first book focused almost exclusively on the nuts and bolts of the process and finding work.
Now that the book is being taught in the university level, I think it's important to go that extra distance to dig deeper into the mechanics of selling original content.
DW: How important is writing? Thinking of your section “Story is Story and Story is Written. Sort of.”
TD: I've always said that anything you know about traditionally scripted content will serve you in the reality television world, because the best reality content mimics the structure of sitcoms and dramas. You still need to know how A and B stories function, the importance of throughlines, and know how to build stakes and intensity as each episode moves forward. The tool kit is different, but the end result should always be a great story, not a lot of what I call "cutting for noise."
DW: By “cutting for noise” you mean…
TD: Valuing the rat-a-tat moments more than forging a coherent story from highs and lows. Non-stop action that’s big, big, big, but might not make sense.
DW: My favorite-named chapter is “The Seven (seventy) Types of Reality Shows.” Was writing that chapter challenging?
TD: Not really, especially as the whole point is that shows are hybridizing like crazy, which is why it's hard to nail down what anything is at its core. Sure, you've got a reality competition series, but maybe it has elements of paranormal or hidden camera stuff. That chapter serves to point out the way that your show needs to be presented as something recognizable to buyers or production partners when you pitch, but that defining some types of hybridized shows can be slippery.
DW: You get down to on the set, operational tips. How is this different on reality TV versus your standard TV show?
TD: In many ways, it's the same. The deal with reality television is often that you need to allow the story to deviate from what you are hoping to get, and make revisions on the fly to accommodate them. Sitcoms often make changes on set, but they're on the level of making a joke work, not suddenly realizing that you've got a feud on your hands or that something shared is suddenly bigger than the story you've been following. Actors are usually well-trained professionals who may have opinions here and there about the characters they're playing, but reality is largely a sensitive, ongoing dialogue about helping non-pro stars stay open and authentic.
DW: You also mention at one point that talent is not your friend. Why not?
TD: Well, they're certainly not the enemy, either. But getting too buddy-buddy with the talent can leave them feeling betrayed depending on what makes it into the show or doesn't and how the post team handles storylines. I also think that getting too close to talent gives you a skewed take on the people they are on-camera versus off, which makes it hard to reconcile little personality differences in the final product. I often actively avoid the talent so that what I see coming in from the field is all I know about them, keeping my evaluation of the material the field team is bringing in pure. As with all things in life, there are some exceptions. Some reality talent needs a little aftercare and checking in on between seasons.
DW: Is it hard to stay current and topical with TV? How hard is it to forecast trends in TV viewing?
TD: I try to watch a single episode of anything that becomes successful, and I'm usually fluent in whatever's on air at any given time as a result. You really can't predict trends, you can only set sail on new ideas and hope they catch on. When they do, you'll have six copycat shows on the air in a couple of months. There's a lot of following trends rather than pushing out new and edgy stuff. Networks often focus on adapting shows they've found overseas rather then home-growing content (see Dancing With the Stars, Big Brother, and so on), because they feel it takes some of the risk out of things to work from a proven concept from Denmark, Israel, the UK, or anywhere American viewers' eyes haven't been to yet.
DW: On that note, reality TV seems to be here to stay. Do you agree? If it is here to stay, why?
TD: It's here to stay, and like sitcoms and other types of programming, demand will ebb and flow and in periods of creative stagnation and predictability, you'll see more or fewer reality shows. Real people are interesting in a way that fictional characters aren't, and vice-versa. Ebb and flow, ebb and flow.
DW: What’s next for you?
TD: I seldom know what's next for me until it pops up. I'm moving into the space where I'm developing more of my own content, but I enjoy being a custodian to other people's shows and ideas as much as my own. I'm more of a process nut than a glory hound, so I'm perfectly happy as a Co-EP or Supervising Producer until I move into a creator role.
DW: What’s your favorite cinematic or television moment? One that inspires you still to this day. It can be a scene, emotion, character or thematic moment.
TD: Of my own shows, I've never been more moved than I was by Jeff Lewis throwing a party for his staff at the end of season one of Flipping Out. He was very emotional and raw and authentic in a way that you might not imagine him to be. I still think that show is one of the most emotionally authentic in reality television.
As for all-time television favorites, that's a tough one. There's a Heide Perlman episode of Cheers (EP 1:14, Let Me Count the Ways) that made me want to pursue writing sitcoms when I was younger. Diane's elderly cat dies, and the bar's lack of sympathy offered over the event registers with her as evidence of how little they care about her. When she tells Sam, privately, why the cat was so significant to her, I fall apart every time.
